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IDProjectCategoryView StatusLast Update
0000433Cinelerra-GG[All Projects] Featurepublic2020-07-04 04:31
ReporterSam Assigned Togoodguy  
PrioritynormalSeverityfeatureReproducibilityhave not tried
Status assignedResolutionopen 
Product Version 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0000433: Audio tracks improvement request from Glen
DescriptionHi,

Just posting a few thoughts and wondering if anyone else has noticed this or feels the same way..

Something about Cinelerra (of all types) that has always really bothered me is the handling of Audio tracks.. It is not my intention to be critical of anyone's work these are observations not judgements.

- Why do the waveform tracks have to be so large and take up so much screen space? If you look at other NLE's one of the major things that really makes Cinelerra's unconventional UI look 'ugly' and outdated is the sheer size, number and visual bulk of the Audio tracks in the timeline view.

- Why can't the vertical size of Audio tracks be independently sized apart from Video tracks, often when actively working on multiple Video tracks it would be nice to make Audio tracks much much smaller to get them out of the usable screen space.

- Why aren't stereo tracks just one visual 'lane' on the timeline with 2 waveforms in one lane? I've never seen any other application that displays true stereo tracks as individual mono tracks..

- How often do people ever need to independently edit each track of a stereo track? to me splitting a stereo track into 2 mono waveforms should be a rarely needed menu option instead of how Cinelerra displays by default.

- Almost every other NLE I've tried puts mono or stereo Audio tracks in one lane of the timeline and Audio effects are applied to one or both Audio tracks with one visual instance of the plugin, no need to attach a plugin to one channel of the stereo track and then apply a copy of the plugin other to the other channel.. Audio tracks in an NLE should really behave like Audio tracks do in any other Audio application like a DAW. For instance in something like Ardour or Audacity 99% of plugins are stereo and the pin connections of how many channels to process are invisible to the user, if you have a stereo track and you apply a stereo plugin the right and left 'pins' are automatically routed, if you drop a stereo plugin on a mono track then it will just connect one side or the other. Since Cinelerra now has the amazing and (very unique in the NLE world) feature to process with LV2 plugins it would be nice if it behaved like virtually every other host of Audio plugins and just let you apply one visual instance of the plugin and let the application invisibly handle the pin routing and automatically apply the effect processing to however many channels are in the 'lane'

I'm sure like many things simplifying how Cinelerra works with Audio visually will conversely be tortuous on the coding side of things so maybe this isn't feasible to even look into. I truly believe that both visually and operationally Cinelerra's very unorthodox handling and displaying of Audio is a stumbling block to it's adoption by new users. Cinelerra doesn't need to be Lightworks, or Vegas or Kdenlive but there is an industry accepted way that Audio is presented in an NLE and if the coding side isn't impossible I think aligning Cinelerra to a more normal workflow for Audio would be very beneficial..

Just my thoughts, Stay safe and stay healthy everyone!

Glen
Steps To Reproducehttps://www.cinelerra-gg.org/forum/help-video/how-audio-tracks-are-displayed-can-it-be-improved/#post-1110
TagsMain window

Activities

PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-07-04 04:31

manager   ~0003732

@Sam
Can not create error seen in Note 3927 where the green box should be red instead. It might have been fixed while fixing something else.
To easily change from one mode to see what is going on, there is now "Shift-toggle" on the icon so you can go back to Gang None mode really fast to see all tracks.
@Andrea_Paz
The Gang modes icon for Channels is now yellow in color and for Gang Media is the color red. I think this helps a lot to ensure that the user is aware of current mode.

We tried changing the order of the Patchbay icons, but they just didn't look good and looked really funny, but the Gang faders was moved to a more logical place. More later.
Andrea_Paz

Andrea_Paz

2020-06-30 06:48

updater   ~0003709

Since the three modes concern the whole timeline, you might think of coloring the button in red when it's in Gang Channels (3 lines) and orange when it's in Gang Media (2 lines). They're ugly, but very noticeable.
I like Sam's suggestion: when one track belonging to a group is disarmed, then you can't drag any edit of the group (grid red). So we immediately realize that the group's arm/disarm is inconsistent and we can fix it.
I also like the new position of the Master Track button proposed by Igor.
AVLinux

AVLinux

2020-06-29 19:09

reporter   ~0003708

Hi, So far I have only had time to test the basic functionality of the new ganging system (much like the demo video Phyllis posted) so I don't have a lot of advanced use wisdom to add yet, however @IgorBeg makes a good point that the mastertrack button would be sensible to be added to the other Patchbay (or track header??) buttons and a visual indicator in the same place would be a good way to go especially on large canvas arrangements with many tracks where you may want to quickly discern if you are looking at a single video track or a track that is in ganged_media mode..
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-06-29 17:14

reporter   ~0003707

You are right @PhyllisSmith but I had some problem to test the new feature due to 0000469 because, unfortunately, I can not rearrange the tracks.
At the first, for me, it was (would be) right what Sam said about Arm/Disarm but that feature is an singularity (a black hole).
Here is like The 3 laws of the Robotics by Isaac Asimov: a priority is need.
My suggestion:
- In Drag and Drop editing mode it follows the "Ganging_tracks.pdf" rule.
- In Cut and Paste editing mode it follows the Arm/Disarm rule (like Sam said).

I think is need a special symbol on the Title track because you could not see, or remember, that you are in Gang_Channel or Gang_Media mode. Could it be a rectangle around the Title text like you can see when you use Shift+LMB on an items of the Overlay window? I added an image. Only an idea.

IMHO, I would change the order of the icon for the PatchBay: ..., MasterTrack, DontSendToOutput, TrackDataHeightTumbler. I added an image.

What do You (ALL) think?

PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-29 14:06

manager   ~0003705

@IgorBeg
Now I am totally confused. First you said "I agree completely with Sam about "My personal opinion is that if a track is locked, then I cannot change anything there, ..., otherwise this function loses its sense." +1. Then in the next note you say
"should Master track "overwrite" the Arm/Disarm behaviour of its Slave track, when you are not in Gang_None mode?
Probably Yes, I think."
These are totally in opposition. For now, we will leave it as it -- we were hoping to have a convincing argument one way or the other before doing the monthly builds.
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-06-29 11:53

reporter   ~0003703

If I create a new Audio or Video track, that tracks are not marked as Master_track. I think the default should be always marked Master_track.


By the Ganging_tracks.pdf:
Notes:
- When in GANG_CHANNELS or GANG_MEDIA mode, if the first audio track is not disarmed, but
any of its connected channel tracks are, the disarm of those channels are ignored and all channels are
treated as being armed. This is to be consistent with the purpose of using this mode; the purpose being
that any edits to the first master track are automatically propagated to all other channels.


Mmh,... should Master track "overwrite" the Arm/Disarm behaviour of its Slave track, when you are not in Gang_None mode?
Probably Yes, I think.
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-06-29 09:04

reporter   ~0003701

Thanks @PhyllisSmith / GG for the TAR: Charlie (alias Charlene) say thanks, due to the high temperature to do a build).

- I agree completely with Sam about "My personal opinion is that if a track is locked, then I cannot change anything there, ..., otherwise this function loses its sense." +1

- Good the new hint shown when you are on Gang button. +1

- About restore the Height of Audio Tracks with Shift+click on the tumbler on the bottom.
Thanks, but I don't means the default (64) height for all audio or all video tracks, but the value that is shown there.
So, if the value is 32, all the Audio Tracks are reverted at that value.
I don't know if changing the eight of the tracks with PullDown Menu should change the eight of the track that, previously, you are changed with the Track Data Eight tumbler. For me it is right but it may be in contrast with @AVLinux request.

- GangMedia_Mode
I think that when in GangMedia_Mode the Video Track should show something of different to indicate that there is an Audio channel (together) hidden. Could be a different background colour of the title track, even though it is not very good for me.

I have to read better what Sam (#3686 point 1 and 2, #3691 point 1) and Pierre (#3699) wrote. For me, that are important/foundamental discussions. (time - time - time)
Pierre

Pierre

2020-06-29 03:02

updater   ~0003699

I agree, when in Gang_Channels or Gang_Media mode the associated tracks should not be able to move relative to each other but only as a group. However, it must be possible to de-associate them (GANG_NONE) at any time, if necessary, to be able to move them individually in relation to each other before re-associating them in GANG in this new distribution-position.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-29 02:44

manager   ~0003698

@IgorBeg
The defautlt (64) height for all audio or all video tracks can be reverted to with the use of Shift-click (looks like RMB) on either the up/down arrow toggle in that box on the bottom of the timeline or by bringing up the box of choices and using Shift-click there. An Ubuntu 16 build is at: https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/testing/cinelerra-5.1-ub16-x86_64-static.txz
@Andrea
Since the wording can be easily changed later, I think it is OK to add the 2 page document to the manual when you have time and can make some better images than I did. Is this going to be added in the "Editing" chapter?
Sam

Sam

2020-06-29 02:34

administrator   ~0003697

My personal opinion is that if a track is locked, then I cannot change anything there, I want to protect this track from unintentional changes, otherwise this function loses its sense. I would solve the problem differently. See the attached picture.

If a part of the related media is in a locked track, then I cannot move the part in the unlocked track either. A lock is created for both media parts, even though a part is in an unlocked track.

Auswahl_003.png (102,103 bytes)
Auswahl_003.png (102,103 bytes)
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-29 02:01

manager   ~0003695

@AVLinux + others:
A big concern to me as outlined by Sam and Skinkie is the treatment of disarmed tracks when in Gang_Channels or Gang_Media mode. Their expectation is "if the track is locked, then no matter in which "Gang" mode/view you are, the corresponding file should not be moved". To me this would be a bad idea because the whole point of "ganging" is to keep the edits, cuts, moves, plugins, etc. all lined up. Once you remove the alignment which is the ONLY method that creates the binding, then we are right back to treating the tracks independently and there is no inherent containment.

Part of the reason that this "ganging" method was requested is because users forget to arm and disarm tracks and then work is lost. Is there any convincing argument why the current method is wrong?
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-28 23:05

manager   ~0003692

@Sam -- because we could see how you operated in the below video, we could finally create the error and GG has a fix to be checked in later.
    "3. When changing the main window, some of the buttons disappear. Please watch the video.
https://streamable.com/0r7nvg"

So I am sure that the last 2 videos will just as helpful.
Sam

Sam

2020-06-28 22:51

administrator   ~0003691

I have made two videos to my previous suggestions to illustrate the problem.

1. It shows that in "Only Master track" mode/view, adding new tracks is not displayed. I have to leave this view first and then activate Master track of the new track. But it's better if I can stay in this "Only Master track" view without leaving it and add new tracks, that these new tracks will be shown to me. The only thing that needs to be done is that when I am in "Only Master track" view and add a new track, that new track will automatically have "Master track" enabled, so it will be shown to me.
P01 video: https://streamable.com/sy1ynl

2. This video shows that the problem with hidden tracks, that the pulling in of new media, an accidental overwriting is almost normal. It would be better if when I drag in new media, all tracks are shown briefly and then hidden again. Of course this should only be optional. Especially new users will like this feature because it prevents accidental overwriting even if they are in the "Only Master Track" view.
P02 video: https://streamable.com/h0wnaf
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-28 20:12

manager   ~0003688

Thanks for all of the feedback -- very much needed and appreciated.

Andrea - gg says good idea and he can add a better tooltip for clarification as you suggested. Wait on adding the document to the manual at least for that change because it would be good to show that in an image. Another image that I did not put in that might be helpful is of the patchbay "Master Track" toggle.

IgorBeg - also good idea to have a revert to default track sizes. Will see if GG can do that easily.

Skinkie has a demo that I am still analyzing that might result in an improvement at: https://streamable.com/igwuoe

Sam - still going over your latest note. Although I have seen your point 3 with the buttons disappearing, now I can no longer reproduce it for gg to diagnose. He tried and can not either BUT I am sure it will happen again so will continue to find the cause.
Sam

Sam

2020-06-28 19:42

administrator   ~0003686

I like that new feature a lot! Thx!

I think the three options are good, but I would definitely make one modification.

1. If I have activated the Gang mode with the button symbol "two tracks" or only "three tracks" and I add a new video or audio track, then this new track should be automatically displayed, that means this newly added track should have the option activated in the patchbay "Master track".

It doesn't make sense if I add a new track in "two tracks" Gang mode and then click through the Gang mode to change the "Mastertrack" option to the new track so that I can see it at all and then switch back to "two lines" Gang mode in the second step. This procedure is too cumbersome. When I add a new track, I want to see it no matter what "Gang" mode I am in. If I don't want to see the new track, I simply deactivate the "Mastertrack" option of this track.

2. Likewise, when I drag a video and its audio from the resource window into the main window, it would be good if all tracks were displayed at that moment. For example from "two tracks" to "all tracks". As soon as I drag the file to the right place and release the file, the "Gang" mode will return to "two tracks" or to the previous setting. This option should be selectable int the settings. Without this option, it is a constant click between the different "Gang" modes. This suggestion makes intuitive working possible in the first place.

3. When changing the main window, some of the buttons disappear. Please watch the video.
https://streamable.com/0r7nvg
Pierre

Pierre

2020-06-28 18:15

updater   ~0003685

@IgorBeg
Indeed, all the screencasts/screenshots I've produced have been produced from my workstation which has 3x 1920x1080 monitors, which usually leaves me plenty of space to keep the height of the tracks to 64. My comment about the space gained by "Gang_Media" was more about the moments when I use my laptop, which only has a 1280x720 screen... and in this case, all the tricks to save vertical space are valid and appreciated, including the height of the tracks to 32...
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-06-28 17:24

reporter   ~0003683

My personal opinion.
My suggestion about removing the 3th option "Gang_Media" is because many users will ask: Why I can not add an Audio Effect on the video that contains audio (but with audio channels no showed)?

In yours (@Pierre and @AVLinux) screencasts/screenshots I don't see the height of the tracks to 32 but 64 or 128. Then I wondering how you can save space if you used a large size? Sorry for that.
AVLinux

AVLinux

2020-06-28 14:50

reporter   ~0003680

Hi,

Thanks again for all the work on this, it is quite a brilliant way to handle things while preserving the default workflow, and it works SO well already!!. Also the manual pages are very helpful and as said very clear. Actually for me it is useful to have "Gang_Media" and I agree with Pierre because for me the issue has been is once I have synced my Audio I usually am busy with fade autos and Video-only stuff and don't need to work much further with Audio and my initial concern in the original post was the inordinate amount of timeline canvas taken to display Audio tracks that weren't necessarily being actively worked on. "Gang_Media" solves that problem even better than the original idea of sizing and placing both waveforms in one lane, now they don't have to use any space at all if they aren't needing to be seen.

I very much appreciate the work done and all the great feedback and ideas that everyone has provided, with the world in it's current state it is very gratifying to see such unity and common purpose... GG and Phyllis you two are two in a million!!
Pierre

Pierre

2020-06-28 13:43

updater   ~0003679

@IgorBeg
Although the 3th "Gang_Media" option will probably be less frequently useful, I believe in the case of working with many mixers on a single small screen, there are situations where it will allow you to monitor more video tracks at the time of video trimming; at a time when you're not necessarily dealing with sound. And since this "Gang_Media" option is already included, why remove it?
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-06-28 09:35

reporter   ~0003674

1. About "2 page document".
Like Pierre wrote, Very clear text. +1

2. I think that the 3th option "Gang_Media" is not useful for the Users like @AVLInux because you can see only the Video track and you can not add any Audio Effect to it (of course). Probably, IMHO, only the two options Gang_None and Gang_Channels are a necessity.

3. About Height of Audio Tracks with tumbler in Audio track.
I think that would be need a restore function to restore the height of all the audio tracks to the value indicated on the "Height of Audio Tracks" button on the bottom of the main/program window.
It could be Shift+LMB on "Height of Audio Tracks" button and it restore to that value.
So, if you played a bit with the height of the tracks you can restore them to the "predefined" value.

More tests I have to do.
Andrea_Paz

Andrea_Paz

2020-06-28 07:00

updater   ~0003669

A small improvement, not important, could be to dynamically modify the gang track tooltip: None or Channels or Media

PS: tell me when I can put the pdf in the manual.
Pierre

Pierre

2020-06-28 01:10

updater   ~0003667

@Phyllis

Very clear text.

This is a brand new feature for Cinelerra and it will take some time to discover all the possibilities and if there is still room for improvement.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-28 00:43

manager   ~0003666

@AVLinux
@IgorBeg
@Andrea_Paz
@Pierre

A less than 2 page document is temporarily at (until it can be added to the manual):
   https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/testing/ganging_tracks.pdf
Pierre

Pierre

2020-06-27 01:25

updater   ~0003663

@Phyllis
Oh, great!
This new Mixers option works very well and it's going to be very useful in case of false maneuvering.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-27 01:14

manager   ~0003662

@Andrea_Paz
Thanks for the Valgrind. Happily it showed no problems with this newly added feature.

@Pierre
I forgot to mention that the Mint 18.3 test build that we made also included a small feature for multiple camera mixers. Under the Window pulldown, Mixers option, now included is the name of each Media Mixer so that if you accidentally close one of the min-viewer windows for a mixer, you can click on that name and a new one will appear.

@AVLinux
With a few fixes added, a new Debian 10 static tar was created and it is at:
    https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/testing/cinelerra-5.1-debian10-x86_64-static.txz

I am still working on proper documentation to add to the manual but ran out of time.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-25 22:35

manager   ~0003656

Last edited: 2020-06-25 22:38

View 2 revisions

About -- "Once you start changing individual channels (audio tracks) so that they are no longer coordinated in their edits/plugins, do not try to go back to automatically editing ganged-channel mode because the channels will no longer be lined up and who knows what will happen. I guess I had better test that!"

Surprisingly after testing the above, it works better than I thought it would and actually might be a useful methodology but you have to know what you are doing.

In working on a short document/explanation, another thing to mention (that IgorBeg will probably bring up) is that if you disarm the second (or subsequent) channels, but not the first Master channel, when you are in ganged-channel mode, the disarming will be ignored. This is in order to maintain consistency in that "what you see (i.e. only that first channel), is "what you get".

PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-25 22:26

manager   ~0003655

@Pierre,
Thank you very much for testing. One of the things that I should have really emphasized is that if you plan on using the ganged-audio mode and make changes to the first audio channel to be automatically duplicated, you should do that first. Once you start changing individual channels (audio tracks) so that they are no longer coordinated in their edits/plugins, do not try to go back to automatically editing ganged-channel mode because the channels will no longer be lined up and who knows what will happen. I guess I had better test that!
Pierre

Pierre

2020-06-25 20:08

updater   ~0003654

Here it works well, I haven't been able to try it in every imaginable situation, but whether it's with a single camera or with mixers I can see that this new feature will be very useful to free vertical space in the timeline.

I'm wondering about the management of the display and the selection of the automatic duplication of plugins when different types of sound tracks (voice and sound of the shooting, mix of several stereo musics, mono or stereo sound effects, added mono or stereo ambiences, etc...) are all associated to one or more video tracks but do not require the same treatments. This will be to be explored later.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-25 17:39

manager   ~0003652

@AVLinux
Happy Birthday! We are adding fixes today yet as we test more thoroughly and will most likely make a new Debian 10 tarball to reflect updates late tonight.
AVLinux

AVLinux

2020-06-25 17:23

reporter   ~0003651

@PhyllisSmith

Wow! and WOW!! It just happens to be my birthday today, what an amazing gift! Downloading tarball now will test over the weekend! THANK YOU!!
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-25 03:29

manager   ~0003650

@AVLinux
Work has been done to treat multiple audio tracks as 1 with respect to plugins, cuts, moves, etc.
A demo is at: https://streamable.com/2ia9sz
There are static tars for testing at:
   https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/testing/cinelerra-5.1-debian10-x86_64-static.txz
   https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/testing/cinelerra-5.1-mint18-x86_64-static.txz
   https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/testing/cinelerra-5.1-mint19-x86_64-static.txz
This is still preliminary but have to get some outside help in testing.
Please report any feedback -- pending problems that have to be fixed concern plugins.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-04 02:05

manager   ~0003563

Last edited: 2020-06-04 02:07

View 2 revisions

This was added to the forum and duplicated in part here. Glen quote from above: in other DAWs there is "no need to attach a plugin to one channel of the stereo track and then apply a copy of the plugin other to the other channel".

 In looking at the audio code today to study implementation, GG made a startling discovery that appears to be undocumented but very useful to easily attach a plugin to one channel of the stereo track and have it applied to the other channel. So instead of dragging an audio plugin to an audio track and then having to "Attach Effect" and click on "Shared Effect", all you have to do is use the Audio pulldown->Attach effect, choose the effect you would like and make sure the default of "Attach single standalone and share others" is checked on. It will automatically be a "Shared Effect" on all audio tracks (be sure to disarm any tracks that you do not want to have the effect shared on). This also works for Video tracks under the Video pulldown.

I will add documentation to the manual so that this is not lost again and only visible knowledge in the code.



shared_effect.png (20,736 bytes)
shared_effect.png (20,736 bytes)
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-06-03 20:11

manager   ~0003562

@AVLinux
We are still planning to find a way to encapsulate both tracks in one lane so will not be doing an intermediate step. And we are still stuck on how to do that but "where there's a will, there's a way"!
AVLinux

AVLinux

2020-06-03 19:11

reporter   ~0003560

Hi! I've been watching and following and thanks for all the great work so far by everyone. I waited for the official package update and the track sizing and tumblers are looking good and working well!

One question... as long as we still have 2 separate audio tracks would it be feasible to have both Audio tracks scale from the tumbler together if they are ganged? That way if you have ganged tracks then you only need to adjust one Audio track to make both smaller on the timeline.. Perhaps this is totally unnecessary if future work will encapsulate both tracks in one lane then it may not be worthwhile as an intermediate step?
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-05-30 09:09

reporter   ~0003522

Thanks Phyllis. I hope that other Users think so.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-05-30 01:53

manager   ~0003521

@IgorBeg
Thanks, as always. We tested them and they looked good so GG checked them into GIT.
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-05-29 12:27

reporter   ~0003512

I added another compressed file. Inside you find the tumblepatch icons for Unflat, PinkLady, Hulk, Blue, Blond and Neophyte themes.
For the Bright, BlueDot and Blond-cv, I won't do anything, sorry (I don't know who use them).
Tell me if they are okay for all of you. Thanks!

Cin_icons_tumblepatch_2.tar.gz (11,832 bytes)
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-05-29 07:32

reporter   ~0003508

Thanks @Sam for your confirm. Could you give me a feedback for this icon, please? (I think they are so small but the space is really small, there)

Thanks @PhyllisSmith and GG. (Off topic. When you have toothache you usually also have headache, and your days become a hell. I hope gg is fine, now)

I will try to complete the tumblepatch-es for the other themes today or tomorrow, I hope.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-05-28 18:04

manager   ~0003502

Oops! Try it now with the latest GIT - forgot to do 1 thing. (Off topic - gg has had a toothache for over a week and no one likes to go to the dentist ordinarily and even worse right now so his brain is not working as well as it should due to pain).

Also, as Sam illustrated in Note 3425, the cut off Audio/Video height in the timeline areas in the zoombar have been fixed so that they look right now.
Sam

Sam

2020-05-28 10:33

administrator   ~0003493

@IgorBeg

I can confirm it Igor. I don't see any changes concerning the icons either.
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-05-28 09:58

reporter   ~0003491

I am sorry, I don't see any changes on Patchbay. The new icons are in theme's folders but they do not affect the Patchbay GUI. May be I wrong to compile?

Cin_version by git: Thu, 28 May 2020 00:27:06 +0200 (16:27 -0600)
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-05-28 00:39

manager   ~0003480

@IgorBeg
Thank you very much! These have been checked into GIT and it is a nice improvement. Cakewalk uses the cakewalk supplied one and SUV uses the suv one which is also the default for the other themes.
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-05-27 08:10

reporter   ~0003476

If things do not change, and you want to test the new tumble icons ONLY for Patchbay, I created the tumblepatch icons for the SUV and Cakewalk theme. Let me know

Buttons (20 x 17 px):
- tumblepatch_bottom.png
- tumblepatch_hi.png
- tumblepatch_top.png
- tumblepatch_up.png

Vertical size is 17 pixels because it is due at the icons already there.

Cin_icons_tumblepatch.tar.gz (1,977 bytes)
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-05-22 20:47

manager   ~0003464

@IgorBeg:
About: 1) I think we have agreed that it should remain the same because of the high usage of the wheel.
About: 2) Aesthetic. A new icon for the tumbler in patchbay would be need. The height of the other icons is 17. The tumbler height is greater and spoils the aesthetic. GG says "it would be nice to have a better tumbler icon or something similar as it is not aesthetic or nice". Got one?
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-05-22 10:13

reporter   ~0003463

Ooh, now I understood. The problem is the mouse wheel on the tumbler. Sorry, I never use mouse wheel on the tumbler. Then it is better it remains as it is. (I usually use mouse wheel over the TextBox and Slider)
Sam

Sam

2020-05-22 08:13

administrator   ~0003461

A small addition to your proposal.
Which I would have no problem with, if the tumbler at the bottom of the window is also adapted to your desired behavior by the tumbler from the patchbay. Pressing down increases the track. It should just be uniform and both tumblers should show the same behaviour.
Sam

Sam

2020-05-22 08:05

administrator   ~0003460

Changing the track size by a pullable dividing line would be optimal. With such a movable dividing line I agree with you that when I move down the track size will be increased, when I move up the track size will be decreased.

But I don't think so with tumblers in the patchbay, it would be exactly contrary to the tumblers in the lower bar and would not be consistent. I use the mouse wheel. With the lower tumbler I turn the mouse wheel up to enlarge the track, but with the tumbler in the patchbay I turn it down. The behaviour of both tumblers, which were made for the same purpose to change the track size, would be contradictory to achieve the same action of enlarging or reducing. For this reason, I would like the behavior to be consistent and not contradictory.

But with a pullable dividing line I would absolutely agree with you, so it makes sense if I pull down to increase the track. I would have preferred a pullable divider, but I'm not sure it's possible due to the limitations of Cinelerra.
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-05-22 07:42

reporter   ~0003459

I think that the tumblers on the bottom of the program window have not touch; they are near to the TextBox with the value inside that say you the size: they are perfect.
The tumbler in the patchbay, from my point of view, should work as a resize window: you click on bottom-arrow and it resizes, expand, the track towards down; you click on top-arrow and it resizes, compress, the track towards up.
If it were possible, it would be better to have a resize function without icon tumbler, more clean and intuitive. So, you put your mouse pointer between two tracks (in the patchbay) and the mouse pointer changes from arrow icon to double arrow (vertical) to resize the track vertically like you usually do to resize a window. I think that @AVLinux use in this way in Ardour program.
(mmh, sorry,... in these times it is said "Application" instead of "Program") ;-p
Sam

Sam

2020-05-21 09:33

administrator   ~0003458

Last edited: 2020-05-21 09:34

View 1 revisions

@IgorBeg

On point 1, I have to say that it feels as right for me as it currently is. Because the controls at the bottom of the main window behave the same way. If I want to make something bigger then I turn up. If I turn something down, then I want to make it smaller. With your desired behaviour it would imply that I have to turn the controls at the bottom upwards to increase the track size, but the controls in the patchbay have to be turned the other way round, which in my opinion leads to confusion. Not making the controls consistent would not help the workflow, because I have to think about how each element behaves. But if it is consistent, then I don't have to think about every control element, because I just have to remember that if I move up, I make it bigger, if I move down, I make it smaller.

On point 2, I completely agree with you. If at least the height would be equal with the other elements, then it would look good.



Auswahl_081.png (43,295 bytes)
Auswahl_081.png (43,295 bytes)
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-05-21 07:47

reporter   ~0003457

If the new feature about resizing the tracks height don't change in these days, I would like to add two things:

1) when you click on the top arrow of the tumbler the track is expanded (become greater), and when you click on the bottom arrow the track is compressed (become smaller).
It would be better the opposite. So when you click the bottom arrow the track is expanded. More natural with what you see on the track, I think.

2) Aesthetic. A new icon for the tumbler in patchbay would be need. The height of the other icons is 17. The tumbler height is greater and spoils the aesthetic.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-05-20 21:07

manager   ~0003456

@AVLinux

Just a short update. Although we have been discussing bullet 2/3 (single type track with stereo in 2 lanes) almost daily for 2-3 weeks now, we have not yet come up with a way to get this in. Program code for several ideas have been bounced around and subsequently eliminated. We might have a way to do this with the invention of a totally new track type but have not fully explored the possibility as of today.

Still working and hoping to come up with another brilliant idea soon, but at least you will now have the ability to make the audio tracks any size your want.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2020-05-18 18:47

manager   ~0003445

@IgorBeg
Just to let you know, I tested existing (old) projects with the new capability of different sizing of the audio tracks versus the video tracks and all of them should work with no impact with this additional feature. Basically what I am saying is that you do not have to use this new feature and even be aware of its existence really. GG wrote the code so that the size will be the same for audio and video and you can still compress the tracks as usual. (Off topic, I am still working on understanding the nested clip in user bin problem so I can narrow down when the change took place that made it no longer work the same way).
AVLinux

AVLinux

2020-05-18 14:27

reporter   ~0003444

@IgorBeg

Thanks for the clarification with the screencast, there are indeed some size options there that I haven't found yet and wasn't aware of, however for me (in my opinion) whether you make things small or large or visible and not visible the fact that every video/stereo audio stream has a rough ratio of 33% Video display to 66% Audio display (when thumbnails and waveforms are displayed as the same size I mean) it is still wasteful of space. I do believe for many people especially new people it will be much more common and familiar visually to see and do single operations (ie not separately applying Audio plugins to each channel) on stereo tracks within a single timeline lane. But the fact that we will have the freedom to choose is the beauty of the whole thing!

Timeline example of Stereo and Mono Audio tracks in Ardour:



Thanks for the comments about AV Linux, Ubuntu Studio is a tremendous project and for most people it is quite sufficient, AV Linux differs in have a much higher degree of internal detail and offering more software and plugin choices, if you are happy with Ubuntu Studio that is a good thing!

ArdourAudio.png (10,516 bytes)
ArdourAudio.png (10,516 bytes)
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-05-18 10:20

reporter   ~0003442

I understand you, @AVLinux; and I know everybody has its own workflow. Sometimes an User like me do not know all the features of Cinelerra. If you have a few of time (1 minute) take a look at the fast screencast, please. May be you always know that.
https://streamable.com/yt0h5o

PS:
Glen, I take this opportunity to thanks you for your OS. It is amazing. I am using UbuntuStudio_16.04 but your OS is my second candidate OS. And I use it as a rescue DVD-live. Thank you so much!
AVLinux

AVLinux

2020-05-18 00:35

reporter   ~0003441

@IgorBeg

GG indicated in that thread that the current functionality would be retained so you shouldn't lose your workflow and hopefully if all goes well some of the new features will added for those who prefer them, to those of us working with a lot of Audio tracks and used to working with other NLE's and Audio DAW's the "professional" aspect of how Cinelerra currently handles Audio is somewhat debatable.
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2020-05-16 10:17

reporter   ~0003432

Thank Sam for opening this ticket. I hadn't read it in the Forum.
I have not tried the last Cin version by git, but I would like to say something about.

I think that many user do not know all the feature there are in Cinelerra. So some users ask for new features, not knowing that there is a way to do that or less.
Only to take an example, how many people know that you can compress all the tracks except where your focus it?
In Overlay window you can use Shift+LMB on the Titles item to compress all the tracks, or unchecked the Assets item; in Patchbay you can expand the tracks of your interest to work on it. So you can save a lot of space for your editing.

About Stereo tracks for the Audio: I always prefer to have separate tracks for the two channels. It is professional. If I have to apply the same effect on the Audio channels (Left+Right), I apply the effect on the Left channel and, then, I use the Shared effect to add the same effect to its Right channel.

Like always, only my personal opinion.
MatN

MatN

2020-05-16 07:08

reporter   ~0003431

Oh, I see this was already dealt with in BT133, I had forgotten. Too difficult to implement apparently.
MatN

MatN

2020-05-16 06:53

reporter   ~0003430

It would be very nice if one could use a side-channel effect, where one audio channel controls the volume of one or more others. Like a voice-over channel causing an automatic reduction in volume of selected other channels.
Sam

Sam

2020-05-15 22:10

administrator   ~0003425

I am delighted that we now have the ability to adjust the track height for each track. Really great implementation by you guys.
I just noticed a few things. In the Theme Cakewalk, the fields are cut slightly.

Audio-setting-bug.jpg (55,555 bytes)
Audio-setting-bug.jpg (55,555 bytes)
Sam

Sam

2020-05-15 21:59

administrator   ~0003424

Last post from Phyllis:

We have split up the following 3 items into phase 1 for bullet 1, which we call GUI, and phase 2 for bullet 2 and 3, which we call GANG -

    Independent vertical sizing of Audio and Video tracks
    Option to choose stereo tracks as a "monolithic" entity that are acted on together for various editing operations (cut/split/copy/paste), dragging, locking/unlocking, applying effects..
    Stereo tracks contained in the same visual 'lane' in the timeline view

With today's GIT checkin, you can now independently size audio versus video tracks. And that's not all ! You can individually resize any track in the patchbay with a toggle. There is a static Debian 10 tar for testing at:

https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/testing/cinelerra-5.1-debian10-x86_64-static.txz

If there are other operating systems on which someone would like to test, just let us know. We did not build Mint 18 yet but can do so if Pierre would like to test but we are still working so there will be more changes.

See the attached mages showing the toggle on the right side of the patchbay for each track and the second png for the zoombar audio individual sizing. And note the tiny little audio track underneath the normal size video track.

patchbay.png
 zoombar.png
By PhyllisSmith 15/05/2020 1:30 am

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
2020-05-15 21:58 Sam New Issue
2020-05-15 21:58 Sam Tag Attached: Main window
2020-05-15 21:59 Sam Note Added: 0003424
2020-05-15 22:10 Sam File Added: Audio-setting-bug.jpg
2020-05-15 22:10 Sam Note Added: 0003425
2020-05-16 06:53 MatN Note Added: 0003430
2020-05-16 07:08 MatN Note Added: 0003431
2020-05-16 10:17 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003432
2020-05-18 00:35 AVLinux Note Added: 0003441
2020-05-18 10:20 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003442
2020-05-18 14:27 AVLinux File Added: ArdourAudio.png
2020-05-18 14:27 AVLinux Note Added: 0003444
2020-05-18 18:47 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003445
2020-05-18 18:48 PhyllisSmith Assigned To => goodguy
2020-05-18 18:48 PhyllisSmith Status new => assigned
2020-05-20 21:07 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003456
2020-05-21 07:47 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003457
2020-05-21 09:33 Sam File Added: Auswahl_081.png
2020-05-21 09:33 Sam Note Added: 0003458
2020-05-21 09:34 Sam Note Edited: 0003458 View Revisions
2020-05-21 09:34 Sam Note Revision Dropped: 3458: 0000377
2020-05-22 07:42 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003459
2020-05-22 08:05 Sam Note Added: 0003460
2020-05-22 08:13 Sam Note Added: 0003461
2020-05-22 10:13 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003463
2020-05-22 20:47 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003464
2020-05-27 08:10 IgorBeg File Added: Cin_icons_tumblepatch.tar.gz
2020-05-27 08:10 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003476
2020-05-28 00:39 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003480
2020-05-28 09:58 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003491
2020-05-28 10:33 Sam Note Added: 0003493
2020-05-28 18:04 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003502
2020-05-29 07:32 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003508
2020-05-29 12:27 IgorBeg File Added: Cin_icons_tumblepatch_2.tar.gz
2020-05-29 12:27 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003512
2020-05-30 01:53 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003521
2020-05-30 09:09 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003522
2020-06-03 19:11 AVLinux Note Added: 0003560
2020-06-03 20:11 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003562
2020-06-04 02:05 PhyllisSmith File Added: shared_effect.png
2020-06-04 02:05 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003563
2020-06-04 02:07 PhyllisSmith Note Edited: 0003563 View Revisions
2020-06-25 03:29 PhyllisSmith Status assigned => feedback
2020-06-25 03:29 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003650
2020-06-25 17:23 AVLinux Note Added: 0003651
2020-06-25 17:39 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003652
2020-06-25 20:08 Pierre Note Added: 0003654
2020-06-25 22:26 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003655
2020-06-25 22:35 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003656
2020-06-25 22:38 PhyllisSmith Note Edited: 0003656 View Revisions
2020-06-27 01:14 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003662
2020-06-27 01:25 Pierre Note Added: 0003663
2020-06-28 00:43 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003666
2020-06-28 01:10 Pierre Note Added: 0003667
2020-06-28 07:00 Andrea_Paz Note Added: 0003669
2020-06-28 09:35 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003674
2020-06-28 13:43 Pierre Note Added: 0003679
2020-06-28 14:50 AVLinux Note Added: 0003680
2020-06-28 17:24 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003683
2020-06-28 18:15 Pierre Note Added: 0003685
2020-06-28 19:42 Sam Note Added: 0003686
2020-06-28 19:42 Sam Status feedback => assigned
2020-06-28 20:12 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003688
2020-06-28 22:51 Sam Note Added: 0003691
2020-06-28 23:05 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003692
2020-06-29 02:01 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003695
2020-06-29 02:34 Sam File Added: Auswahl_003.png
2020-06-29 02:34 Sam Note Added: 0003697
2020-06-29 02:44 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003698
2020-06-29 03:02 Pierre Note Added: 0003699
2020-06-29 09:04 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003701
2020-06-29 11:53 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003703
2020-06-29 14:06 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003705
2020-06-29 17:14 IgorBeg File Added: Cin_Patchbay_MasterTrack_ChannelsAndMedia_mode.png
2020-06-29 17:14 IgorBeg File Added: Cin_Patchbay_MasterTrack_20200629.png
2020-06-29 17:14 IgorBeg Note Added: 0003707
2020-06-29 19:09 AVLinux Note Added: 0003708
2020-06-30 06:48 Andrea_Paz Note Added: 0003709
2020-07-04 04:31 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0003732