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MatN
 MatN
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26/03/2020 7:16 am  

@phyllissmith

Maybe you can make a computer temporarily slow? If the BIOS allows you to turn off cores, and you reduce it to one, then maybe the effect shows. I remember that if you have very many audio tracks it is slow scrolling scrolling vertically.

 


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MatN
 MatN
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26/03/2020 7:23 am  

@lfom

Yes that was me at itsfoss . I wonder where the time is spent at your machine. The inxi output looks OK.

You're using Gnome, is there a small widget or so in there that allows you to see CPU utilization? If it is maxed out while you have this problem, we know it is not waiting for (program) resources.

 


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MatN
 MatN
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26/03/2020 10:04 am  

@lfom, some more questions:

1. Is your problem mainly scrolling the timeline vertically, or also horizontally?

2. inxi shows your are using the Intel i915 driver. Does "vainfo" show that video acceleration APIs are available, and if so, do you have it enabled in Settings->Preferences->Performace->hw device?

3. It is probably not relevant if you are using proxies, but what is the format of the original video? In the resources window, right-click on the video, then "detail" .

4. I once reported very slow response ( https://www.cinelerra-gg.org/bugtracker/view.php?id=258) which is probably unrelated to your problem. But what could be relevant is that with that slowness, CPU utilization was only 23%, so CinGG was not using the available CPU resources. In my instance, I loaded 150M if images from a fast SSD, pure storage access should have been < about 0.5 second, yet the whole process too 7 minutes

 


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LFOM
 LFOM
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26/03/2020 1:49 pm  

@matn

Yes, only when scrolling the timeline or moving clips/keyframes is slow. Scrolling vertically when there are audio tracks is painfully sluggish, it is the worst scenario by far. Indeed I use a widget in the top bar that shows CPU and memory usage, and when this happens the CPU usage is low (below 50%). The only way to improve it is by disabling assets and "Display media".

vaap was enabled, as I mentioned before, but I had to disable it for the tests since it has some bug when handling images (I will make the video using only images and titles to be clear that the problem is not handling the videos). But recording the screen is using lots of CPU, so it may not be clear that the problem isn't CPU usage or the media... I may go back to X11 tho, if this helps recording the video, and it rules out any problems with Wayland...

 

$ vainfo
libva info: VA-API version 1.5.0
libva info: va_getDriverName() returns 0
libva info: Trying to open /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/dri/i965_drv_video.so
libva info: Found init function __vaDriverInit_1_4
libva info: va_openDriver() returns 0
vainfo: VA-API version: 1.5 (libva 2.5.0)
vainfo: Driver version: Intel i965 driver for Intel(R) CherryView - 2.3.0
vainfo: Supported profile and entrypoints
VAProfileMPEG2Simple : VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileMPEG2Simple : VAEntrypointEncSlice
VAProfileMPEG2Main : VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileMPEG2Main : VAEntrypointEncSlice
VAProfileH264ConstrainedBaseline: VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileH264ConstrainedBaseline: VAEntrypointEncSlice
VAProfileH264Main : VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileH264Main : VAEntrypointEncSlice
VAProfileH264High : VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileH264High : VAEntrypointEncSlice
VAProfileH264MultiviewHigh : VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileH264MultiviewHigh : VAEntrypointEncSlice
VAProfileH264StereoHigh : VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileH264StereoHigh : VAEntrypointEncSlice
VAProfileVC1Simple : VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileVC1Main : VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileVC1Advanced : VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileNone : VAEntrypointVideoProc
VAProfileJPEGBaseline : VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileJPEGBaseline : VAEntrypointEncPicture
VAProfileVP8Version0_3 : VAEntrypointVLD
VAProfileVP8Version0_3 : VAEntrypointEncSlice
VAProfileHEVCMain : VAEntrypointVLD

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LFOM
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03/04/2020 2:35 am  

Hello, again!

 

Sorry for the delay to post the video showing the problem, but here it is:
https://streamable.com/c296d4

 

CPU usage is high since the beginning due to the screen recorder. I had to go back to X11 to be able to record the screen properly. But it seems that the sluggishness only happens when any line with keyframes is shown (fade, speed, etc), you can see in the video how bad it goes... Also, displaying sound wave forms slows down UI too, but not as bad as the keyframes. Too bad, since the keyframes are one of the best features IMO. I have shown the settings, but they don't actually matter. The program is much faster on Wayland with vappi enabled, but then there is some problem rendering images (JPG or PNG, i don't recall which one exactly now), video playback and everything else is snappy when there is no keyframes or waveforms visible.

 

Also I notices that "Show titles" is disabled when there is anything in the timeline the current titles remain, they aren't hidden. Known bug?

 

I will upload another video soon, showing the problem (in my opinion) when editing keyframes, and showing how it works in Olive, with a separate "timeline" for them (Shotcut does this too).

 

Regards


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PhyllisSmith
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03/04/2020 4:06 pm  

OK, gg and I took an initial look at your video but will have to check it much more closely.  BTW - I really like the green circle that shows when you click - I need one of those!  More later.


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LFOM
 LFOM
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03/04/2020 7:38 pm  

@phyllismith The name of the screen recorder I used is Vokoscreen. It was discontinued (maybe its package is still available in your distro tho) but there is a new version called Vokoscreen-NG that seems even better.

https://itsfoss.com/vokoscreenng/

 

Here is the video showing the usage of keyframes, with a quick example of how it could be better using a separate window for keyframe timelines (if the sluggishness cannot be fixed):

https://streamable.com/8pk7y4

 

 

Besides the bug regarding the "Show titles" I mentioned in my previous message, Cinelerra GG Infinity cannot handle PNG or JPG when vappi is enabled for HW acceleration, I get some errors in the terminal when running the app manually. It doesn't seem to be related to the system installed ffmpeg version. Should I open a bug tracker item for these two?

 

Another request suggestion is related to Titles: when adding them to an empty track they fill the whole track, is there a way to set a limit like 3s or 5s? Or maybe add a solid color generator for clips so we can add "blank" ones with a chosen duration to the timeline and them apply Title? I remember I was able to add a solid color filter, but as it is displayed as a filter and not a clip, probably adding one to an empty track will fill the whole duration as well (same as Title).

 

Regards


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andreapaz
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04/04/2020 9:12 am  

Hi,
I've seen you don't use Autos (manual 7.1 and 7.2: Automation Keyframes, Autos). They are comfortable and speed up the work.
I think the main problem for new users is the habit of using keyframes as done in practically all other programs. CinGG is very different in the way of working, but I, by now, find much faster, more comfortable and precise the CinGG method (all available at the same time in the timeline) because it is more intuitive and immediate, without opening new windows, curve editors and small timelines for each effect. I have to say that the precision in working I have obtained only since I use a big monitor; before, with the laptop, I often didn't center the keyframe with precision and so I created another one I didn't want, etc..
A convenience is to right-click on the keyframe and choose the item that opens the adjustment slider ("Fade" in the case of the fade curve). This way you can make very precise adjustments and also enter the numerical value directly.

I'm not sure I understand the problem with the Title plugin: when we have to apply an effect to only one edit or to only one part of the track (even empty), we have to use cut and past editing to select the desired region; or use the In/Out Points (manual 5.5.4: Selections Methods). You can then apply the effect only to the chosen region.


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Olaf
 Olaf
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04/04/2020 12:27 pm  

@andreapaz: "because it is more intuitive and immediate"

On the contrary, as it is, it's the biggest shit. Not without reason, the Alpha version of Olive has more users than Cinelerra after twenty years. Just my opinion.

 


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Sam
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04/04/2020 12:59 pm  

The problem of Cinelerra has indeed been the slow development time and also the unwillingness of the previous developers to respond quickly to user requests. This has partly changed due to the new developers, unfortunately their capacities are still not sufficient to address the most urgent problems. The user interface is still one of the biggest problems. Many users prefer a single window program. Also the arrangement of the buttons and the general design is very old-fashioned.

I agree with Olaf that Olive Editor does many things right and with the next version it will probably become the standard among open-source NLEs. The biggest advantage is that it has learned from the mistakes of other NLEs and will use this experience in a completely new development. The advantages are obvious, it can be used on almost all operating systems from Windows, Linux and Mac. This is also the main reason for the fast distribution, Windows users are a dime a dozen. The single-window operation and the handling reminds very much of professional NLEs like Premiere. The next killer feature in the upcoming version will be the node-based effects. It is a mixture of Premiere and Resolve.

Nevertheless I like Cinelerra-GG, it is very solid and the development is progressing. It will probably continue to be a niche application in the future, as it has been in the past. Due to the bad reputation from the past, it is unfortunately difficult to find new users now, but the awareness is slowly changing to the positive.


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andreapaz
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04/04/2020 2:40 pm  

@olaf

Because people want the Premiere Pro interface and workflow. So it has already happened with Photoshop, which has destroyed every possible competitor. Now it's happening with Premiere Pro.

 


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LFOM
 LFOM
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04/04/2020 5:59 pm  

@andreapaz I will take a look at Autos, thanks for the heads up! Other editors also have keyframes in the timeline too, OpenShot does this for Fade as well, IIRIC. The interface per si isn't the problem IMO, but how slow it gets making the feature unusable (regarding keyframes at least).

I think I tried to use copy&paste for the Title, but it didn't work, at least not when using a track just for titles. I had to insert a short clip from the Viewer, then add the filter. That's why I am suggesting the feature of creating clips with solid colors, they can be useful for many other things as well.

 

Regards


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LFOM
 LFOM
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04/04/2020 6:07 pm  

@sam Cinelerra GG is so much porwerful than any other open source NLE right now, there is no comparison. No other can do speed ramps or object tracking AFAIK, the only other program that comes close is DaVinci Resolve, that is hard to install on Linux and requires a beefed up hardware.

 

With so many videos showing how to use CGG the interface isn't a huge problem IMO. Of course, it helps new users when the UI is similar to another program. But some things need time to get used to like the keyboard shortcuts (very different from any other NLE), how some things work like the Title plugin but mostly how slow it can run sometimes. My guess is that Olive is so popular now because it runs well for basic tasks on almost any machine that can run it, and the basic tools are easy to find and use.

 

Regards


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Sam
 Sam
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04/04/2020 6:32 pm  

I agree with you that Cinelerra is powerful and currently by far the most capable open source NLE available. I've been working with Cinelerra for quite some time and I run the website here. I have never said that Cinelerra is bad. I just wanted to say that there are people who would like to have a Premiere Pro or Resolve replacement. Like single window operation and that the thing runs on Windows for example. That's the audience the Olive Editor serves. Cinelerra is specifically designed for Linux, because of that alone the audience range is much smaller and for that reason it is a niche product and not a mass product like Premiere or other well-known NLEs.

Nevertheless, you can look beyond the horizon and also appreciate the achievements of others, which doesn't mean that I am disparaging our own work. We are automatically compared to the others and it does not hurt to consider some desired features for the future. This also includes a critical and honest self-assessment. I appreciate our work and also the help of supporters like you and the other people here. We are making progress and I am also very grateful to our developers for the many great new improvements.


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LFOM
 LFOM
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05/04/2020 4:16 pm  

I have found out what causes the errors when using vaapi for HW acceleration: if ffmpeg_first is enabled, CinGG cannot load JPG/PNG. It works if I disable it, load the images, then enable ffmpeg first for the videos.

@andreapaz I think I was using auto keyframes in the video showing the sluggishness, wasn't I? Unfortunately, I didn't find a way that would decrease the slowness and allow me to use keyframes. Also the lack of "snap" when moving filters (Ttile, for example), either the whole segment or the in/out points is frustrating... If it was possible to enable snap at least to the current cursor position it would help a lot.

Regarding applying the Title for just a segment of the track, the simple workaround I found was to move to copy&paste mode temporary, select the are I want for the title, and then apply the filter.

 

Regards


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