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How to prevent effects in one clip creating empty effect slots in other clips?

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Please see this timeline image.

Notice that there are eight effects slots, yet no single clip has more than two effects.  For some reason, the number of effects in one clip adds to the number of effects slots in all other clips.  So, there are 8 effects slots when there should only be two.

I don't want 8 effects slots for clips that use no more than two slots each.

In addition, if I move an effect in clip "A"  from slot "1" down to slot "2,"  the effect that is in clip "B" slot "2" involuntarily moves to another slot.

I don't want changing the slot position of effects in one clip to affect the slot position of effects in other clips.

How does one prevent the unnecessary extra effects slots and the involuntary movement of effects?

Thanks!

 

 

12 Answers
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@tupper

Good questions.  The reason the plugin effects start a new row each is to make it very easy to extend them, making them longer in any direction without having to be concerned from a program viewpoint of "walking" on another effect.  This is an original design decision to avoid conflicts and a lot of jockeying around.

Move up/down of an effect changes the position of the next/previous effect up/down.  The next/previous effects are stored in an array (software terminology) so that if you move 1 effect down in the array, the one that was in that position (software wise) has to have some place to go so it goes up in the array and in the timeline position.

Currently I do not believe there is a way for the user to modify this behavior, except with the use of "nesting".  But maybe someone has a method that I have not thought of.

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There is a possibility to clean up the effects bars. Here is a small example video. https://streamable.com/xblkrq
In my example I never moved BlueBanana (or Sharpen effect) in the same line to avoid overwriting the existing keyframes. For this reason, I always positioned them alternately in different lines.

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If using the same effects on all clips, as the timeline shot suggests, try applying the effects to the whole timeline and keyframe the adjustment differences at the start of each clip. It needs two keyframes per clip, the first frame and the last. To use, turn keyframing on, adjust the effect at the first frame of the first clip, move the playhead to the start of the next clip and press 4 to back up one frame. Move one adjustment slightly to set another keyframe and move the setting back. Reposition the playhead to the beginning of the next clip for the next adjustment and repeat down the timeline. If any clips do not require the effect, just reset all settings to their start points for that clip.

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The fact that each effect occupies a full line also causes me major problems.

Sometimes projects require me to individually and uniquely adjust the brightness and colors or sound of each cut of a project. Since some of these projects have a lot of cuts (several tens or even hundreds...) I quickly find myself with an extremely long list of unique effects to manage and scroll through the screen. It quickly becomes unmanageable...

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Posted by: @pierre

Sometimes projects require me to individually and uniquely adjust the brightness and colors or sound of each cut of a project.

Which you adjust at a keyframe. Using this method each clip (or cut if you prefer), can have completely separate settings from its neighbours, several per clip if you like, all the way down the timeline, on the same instance of any effect you apply. It works out exactly the same as if separate instances of the same effect are applied to each clip, but a darned sight neater on the timeline!

 

I had exactly the same problem coming to Cinelerra (long before Cin_GG and this website, when help was almost impossible to find) from Kdenlive and before that, Sony Vegas, both of which require an instance of any effect to be applied to each clip. Trying to do that in Cin I soon had a timeline about 10 feet deep containing several "staircases" of each effect, which made it nigh on impossible to locate any of the effects further down the timelime and cost me many hours. One of Cin's strengths is the versatitlty of its keyframing and that almost every effect is keyframable. Once I realised that, the whole thing became much more civilised. As an example, I am colour correcting some footage right now. There are 30 clips each requiring a LUT, Histogram, Histogram Bezier to boost contrast and Sharpen. I have the four effects below the video track, the Histogram effect has 60 keyframes of which 58 are to make the settings changes between the clips, the other two are the first setting for the first clip and the last setting for the last clip, although the last one may not be necessary. The other effects are being used as track effects.

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Thanks for the information. I'll try that.

But what if, once the keyframes and individual plugin adjustments are set up correctly... I decide to move the trim points or worse, cut and paste some clips elsewhere in the project, do the keyframes automatically follow those changes without me having to reposition them afterwards?

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In my experience yes, but my experience is not exhaustive so I cannot speak for all scenarios.

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@Tupper

If effects overlap in the same row, simply put one of them in another row where they don't overlap -- ... There's no need to overthink this stuff.

If the program was being newly written today, we would not have to overthink.  But this program was written over 20 years ago, when cpus and memory were less available and more expensive -- the way it currently works is from the original design.

It doesn't seem to work the same on my Cinelerra-GG timelines.

Sam's reminder methodology as shown in https://streamable.com/xblkrq works very, very well -- you just have to be in "Drag and Drop editing mode" instead of "Cut and Paste editing mode".  It is easy to switch back and forth via the timeline top icons.   Please try this.

@Pierre:

do the keyframes automatically follow those changes without me having to reposition them afterwards?

Under the Settings pulldown is the option "Keyframes follow edits" which is on by default.  So "yes" they automatically will follow (unless there is a bug that we do not know about yet).

However, I will add a feature request to the Bug Tracker to see if your suggestion can be easily implemented without repercussions.  It is BT #496.

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Topic starter
Posted by: @phyllissmith

The reason the plugin effects start a new row each is to make it very easy to extend them, making them longer in any direction without having to be concerned from a program viewpoint of "walking" on another effect.  This is an original design decision to avoid conflicts and a lot of jockeying around.

Thank you for the explanation.

I think that it is best to let the user worry about effects "walking" on each other.  If effects overlap in the same row, simply put one of them in another row where they don't overlap -- the same way clips are treated in the tracks.

That way one can still apply effects across multiple clips, but still be able to easily apply the same effect on other clips throughout the timeline, each with different, independent settings.

Don't have the NLE automatically "jockey  around" the effects depending on what comes before or afterward -- that causes a lot of problems and frustration.

There's no need to overthink this stuff.

Keep in mind that it is important for most NLE and color grading users first adjust effects "per clip."  Adjustments across multiple clips and/or across the entire timeline are usually applied after each individual clip is color graded.

 

Posted by: @phyllissmith

Move up/down of an effect changes the position of the next/previous effect up/down.  The next/previous effects are stored in an array (software terminology) so that if you move 1 effect down in the array, the one that was in that position (software wise) has to have some place to go so it goes up in the array and in the timeline position.

That's complex, unexpected and frustrating.  The "slot" paradigm for effects is not ideal, but if this behavior could be changed, it might make Cinelerra easier to use.

 

Posted by: @phyllissmith

Currently I do not believe there is a way for the user to modify this behavior, except with the use of "nesting".  But maybe someone has a method that I have not thought of.

Hopefully, the Cinelerra-GG devs can figure out a way to make it work.

 

Posted by: @sam

There is a possibility to clean up the effects bars. Here is a small example video. https://streamable.com/xblkrq
In my example I never moved BlueBanana (or Sharpen effect) in the same line to avoid overwriting the existing keyframes. For this reason, I always positioned them alternately in different lines.

Thank you for making the video.

It doesn't seem to work the same on my Cinelerra-GG timelines.

Regardless, the top-to-bottom order of the filters/effects in each clip is important and can affect the final result, so it is not ideal to be forced to change that order merely to reduce the number of effects rows to a manageable quantity.

 

Posted by: @dejay

If using the same effects on all clips, as the timeline shot suggests, try applying the effects to the whole timeline and keyframe the adjustment differences at the start of each clip. It needs two keyframes per clip, the first frame and the last. To use, turn keyframing on, adjust the effect at the first frame of the first clip, move the playhead to the start of the next clip and press 4 to back up one frame.  To use, turn keyframing on, adjust the effect at the first frame of the first clip, move the playhead to the start of the next clip and press 4 to back up one frame. Move one adjustment slightly to set another keyframe and move the setting back. Reposition the playhead to the beginning of the next clip for the next adjustment and repeat down the timeline. If any clips do not require the effect, just reset all settings to their start points for that clip.

Thank you for the suggestion, but that method doesn't seem practical, especially for an effect with many settings.

The primary reason why I am using Cinelerra is for the Blue Banana plug-in, which has over 44 controls.  I can't imagine the nightmare of having to keyframe all those settings both in the beginning and end of each clip.

Also, what happens in that scenario when one needs to cut, add or move clips from in between other clips.

 

Posted by: @pierre

Sometimes projects require me to individually and uniquely adjust the brightness and colors or sound of each cut of a project.

Most professional projects are graded "per clip," or, more accurately, "per shot"  Clips of a single shot scattered throughout a timeline often share the same effects/filters.

 

Posted by: @pierre

Since some of these projects have a lot of cuts (several tens or even hundreds...) I quickly find myself with an extremely long list of unique effects to manage and scroll through the screen. It quickly becomes unmanageable...

Yep.  That's the point.

 

Posted by: @pierre

But what if, once the keyframes and individual plugin adjustments are set up correctly... I decide to move the trim points or worse, cut and paste some clips elsewhere in the project, do the keyframes automatically follow those changes without me having to reposition them afterwards?

Good point!

If one uses the "keyframe method" and one adds a clip from a shot that has been already used, one has to manually adjust all of the keyframes to match the settings of the already existing shot.  In other NLE's and color grading setups, one can just copy and paste settings from one clip to another.

 

 

 

This post was modified 6 months ago by tupper

@tupper

Sorry to ask you something OT, but you're the first I've heard you use CinGG for Blue Banana. Since I am not satisfied with the explanations about BB in the manual I wanted to ask you if you have time/wish to make a revision and suggest corrections or additions.

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Topic starter
Respondido por: @phyllissmith

If the program was being newly written today, we would not have to overthink.  But this program was written over 20 years ago, when cpus and memory were less available and more expensive -- the way it currently works is from the original design.

Thank you for the explanation.  I think that I have read the same explanation in other threads in this forum.

By the way, I have been using Cinelerra off and on since the mid-Aughts.

 

Respondido por: @phyllissmith

Sam's reminder methodology as shown in https://streamable.com/xblkrq works very, very well...

As I mentioned in my last post above, the top-to-bottom order of effects/filters is important, so changing that filter order to reduce effects rows can result in an undesired, detrimental look.

To illustrate this point, please see these side-by-side images that were taken from the same frame on a Cinelerra-GG timeline.  Both images are using the Blur effect and the DotTV  with identical settings.  However,the image on the left has the blur effect in the row above the DotTV effect, while the image on the right has the DotTV effect in the row above the Blur effect.

So, the row order of the effects probably should be dictated by the desired result -- not by a method to hack around a peculiar and troublesome software interface.

 

Respondido por: @phyllissmith

... you just have to be in "Drag and Drop editing mode" instead of "Cut and Paste editing mode".  It is easy to switch back and forth via the timeline top icons.   Please try this.

If you look at the image that I linked in my original post, I was in "Drag and Drop" editing mode when I took the screen shot.  I am fairly sure that I was in that mode when I tried to properly arrange filters/effects.

Nevertheless, I tried rearranging the filters again while making sure that I was in "Drag and Drop" mode, and I was able to actually do better than Sam, but not without a couple of side-effects.

As you can see, from the timeline image linked above, all of the Blue Banana filters in a single row and all of the Sharpen filers in another single row.  The settings for each Blue Banana filter are different and specific to each clip to which they are attached -- as they should be.  Likewise the settings for each Sharpen filter are clip specific.

I knew that I was able to do this in previous versions of Cinelerra, which is why the involuntary effects movement I experienced was especially frustrating.

Also, as I am fairly sure that I was in "Drag and Drop" mode when I tried this the first time with Cinelerra-GG, it is puzzling as to why it is working now (and as to why nobody here mentioned that it is possible to have identical filters with clip-specific settings in the same effects row).

The important point is that arranging the filters in the order that one desires is possible with Cinelerra-GG.

On the other hand, I did experience side-effects. 

There was an involuntary movement of one of the sharpen filters when I was rearranging the effects.  That only occurred once.

A more frustrating side-effect is that the filters were excessively out of sync when I reopened the project.  I would re-sync them and the would be less out of sync the next time I opened the project.  They weren't out of sync after reopening on the third try.  If this problem and all of the other involuntary effects movements were eliminated, Cinelerra-GG would be more viable for a professional environment.

 

This post was modified 6 months ago by tupper
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Topic starter
Posted by: @andreapaz

Sorry to ask you something OT, but you're the first I've heard you use CinGG for Blue Banana. Since I am not satisfied with the explanations about BB in the manual I wanted to ask you if you have time/wish to make a revision and suggest corrections or additions.

Thank you for the inquiry.

The Blue Banana plug-in is the main reason why I use Cinelerra.

However, I am not sure what I could add to the Cinelerra-GG manual as it gives a fairly clear explanation of each control, and it also gives a few examples.  I suppose that those explanations could be reworded/clarified a bit.

Here is an earlier version of the Cinelerra manual (not sure if this was pre-GG).  I have not gone through the entire Blue Banana section, but parts of it are identical to the Blue Banana section in the GG manual.

Here is Monty Montgomery's original Blue Banana plug-in announcement from January, 2013 on the Cinelerra-CV mailing list.  I think that he might have had some documentation, but those links to xiph.org and to the git repository are dead.  His email address at the top of the message might still work, if you care to go to the source.

Over the years, I have seen several Blue Banana YouTube tutorials in various languages on YouTube that looked good.

Hope this helps.

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@tupper

I knew that I was able to do this in previous versions of Cinelerra, which is why the involuntary effects movement I experienced was especially frustrating.

Thanks for more follow-up.  I can no longer get CV to run but when I tested with the current HV 7.2 you can see it works the same in the attached png.   GG believes that this is still the original code adapted from HV with CV modifications all merged in (where it was possible to do so and there were no conflicts).

So, the row order of the effects probably should be dictated by the desired result -- not by a method to hack around a peculiar and troublesome software interface.

The important point is that arranging the filters in the order that one desires is possible with Cinelerra-GG. ... I did experience side-effects.

I think we can eventually design a better solution as we chop away at improvements but with currently only 1 main programmer it may be awhile.  GG did say there is probably alignment problems when moving around which I think are the side-effects you see and maybe this can be fixed sooner rather than later.

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