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IDProjectCategoryView StatusLast Update
0000287Cinelerra-GG[All Projects] Featurepublic2019-10-26 14:49
ReporterOlaf Assigned ToPhyllisSmith  
PriorityhighSeverityfeatureReproducibilityalways
Status acknowledgedResolutionopen 
Product Version 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0000287: A Keframe switch for camera and projector
DescriptionIn the dialogs for camera and projector a Keframe switch is missing which inserts the values set there as keyframe at the selected position.
TagsNo tags attached.

Activities

PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2019-10-26 14:49

manager   ~0002341

@Olaf
From Note 2198, not sure if you found this yet "button in the GUI that matches "cwindow_focus.png"" but you can see it in the Compositor window when using the Mask Menu, clicking on "Focus" on the right hand side of the "Pivot Point" section which is nearer the bottom. After enabling "Focus", in the Compositor window sometimes the cwindow_focus.png popups up automatically, (or when you click LMB to make a point), at the coordinates set in the X, Y Pivot Point values.
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-18 11:15

reporter   ~0002300

Hm, I don't think I'm wrong with my reasoning, but 0000128, which I didn't know, is in direct conflict, of course. So this question is over for me.
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2019-10-18 08:52

reporter   ~0002298

Olaf wrote: “If I reset the camera with F11, then it is actually obvious that I don't want any keyframes at this point. … The description for F11/12 is Reset (camera/projector) which means (translated into German) reset everything to zero or start from scratch.”

Wrong. Reset/Clear doesn’t mean delete or erase a keyframe, and I already wrote that in my last post.
 
Olaf, read this closed feature request, please.
https://www.cinelerra-gg.org/bugtracker/view.php?id=128
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-17 18:14

reporter   ~0002294

Hi IgorBeg, my thought is this. If I reset the camera with F11, then it is actually obvious that I don't want any keyframes at this point. If it's just about moving the position back I use the camera tool, because I want a keyframe at this point to hold the position. The point is, I set the camera position and then I notice that six frames further on is the better place for it. Now your description comes to the fore. Among other things, this requires accuracy, as opposed to changing the position with the camera tool when the automatic keyframe is turned off. This is because the left keyframe is edited and it doesn't matter how far away the position indicator is from it.

The description for F11/12 is "Reset" (camera/projector) which means (translated into German) "reset everything to zero" or "start from scratch". This is especially true because it is a menu item directly on the composer. But if keyframes remain, there is an edit at this point.
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2019-10-17 09:34

reporter   ~0002293

Olaf wrote: “I don't understand why F11/12 leaves the keyframes. Should I write a bug report?”

F11/F12 works correctly. F11 and F12 respectively reset the position/zoom of the Camera and Projector, not erase/delete any keyframes. And, like keyframe in plugins, they may change the parameters of the previous keyframe.

If you want to delete a keyframe you have to use the usual two methods:
1) In Timeline, mouse pointer over the keyframe, RMB and the choose “delete keyframe” option.
2) Highlight the area in Timeline to select the keyframes you want delete, and Menu> Keyframes> Clear Keyframes. (You have to be in “Cut and Paste editing mode” and the track have to be armed)
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-16 12:45

reporter   ~0002290

> "About RMB (Right Mouse Button) to "Reset to Default", I don’t like this suggestion, sorry. For me RMB should always be used only to show another Subwindow/Submenu."

I didn't want to take the submenu away: Cut, Copy, Paste, Reset to Default. (What is already built in has to work, otherwise it should be removed.)

> "And, I don’t know why Olaf don’t like “separators”"

The seperators are a relic from the last century. CGG contained more horizontal lines than a spreadsheet. Partly one did not know whether it was an input field or not, lines and sliders competed with each other. In Cakewalk they are gone or so inconspicuous that the eye doesn't have to search long, because CW is sufficiently rich in contrast compared to themes like S.U.V. and Unflat, which allows each element to be captured immediately.

The designs of @IgorBeg and @Andrea_Paz are easy to realize and offer beginners a clear tool window.

(I don't understand why F11/12 leaves the keyframes. Should I write a bug report?)
Sam

Sam

2019-10-16 11:33

administrator   ~0002289

Thank you all for the many suggestions, it is always good to see several suggestions and ideas. For me personally Igor's first layout still convinced me the most and so I can only endorse Igor's arguments. Igor's layout is both intuitive and logical. I also like the reset buttons. The divider lines and section headings make the window even clearer, but it is not an absolute must for me.
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2019-10-16 11:00

reporter   ~0002288

I saw your works, Olaf and Andrea. Sorry but I prefer my “Camera-Projector-tools_layout_01.png”.
I don’t speak about symbols of the icons but the layout. (Note: Key symbol for keyframe I don’t like, and I never see it in others NLEs or others softwares that use keyframes, my problem, of course).

About RMB (Right Mouse Button) to "Reset to Default", I don’t like this suggestion, sorry. For me RMB should always be used only to show another Subwindow/Submenu.
So, I don’t like the MMB (Middle Mouse Button in Timeline; it’s not easy to use there. Usually the MMB is used in CAD3d to move the objects in the 3 dimensions.

And, I don’t know why Olaf don’t like “separators” (it is a pity): they are useful and many programs, if not all, use them. They help to divide the different functions and for the user is more easy to see them.

However I added a picture to explain my “Camera-Projector-tools_layout_01.png” photomontage so there are not misunderstanding, and another picture, “Camera-Projector-tools_layout_02”, where You can see other possibilities, I hope. There are two version without the buttons to jump forward and backward, and without the delete keyframe button (because I think that these functions will not be implemented in the short term).
The little frames are the size of the PNGs (you find in the plugins/themes_xxx/data/ directory).
That’s all. Thanks.


PS:
About Clear button (arrow with dot), it had been created by me only to clear the slider in the Plugins, not for others use.

About k/Ctrl+k shortcut to "Move to next/previous keyframe", they work only for keyframe’s plugin, not for autos (Autos in “Overlay window”).

Andrea_Paz

Andrea_Paz

2019-10-15 09:25

updater   ~0002284

You're right, Olaf. But... I like big windows!
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-14 20:27

reporter   ~0002283

As I wrote before, I think that four reset switches are too many for such a small window, and then vertically one below the other. At least the XYZ switches should differ optically from the F11/12. Without removing the set keyframe, there is visible redundancy, apart from Z perhaps if you want it to be comfortable. F11/12, btw, does not remove keyframes that have already been set, so Default is therefore negotiable. ;-)

We have a numeric input with scroll wheel support and Double/Triple Click + Del, plus a double rocker (tumble_*) for the mouse right next to it, the horizontal and vertical alignment as a quick switch (undo, imo). The paths in this area are short. Therefore the RMB, and it really has to take back everything in the area, best including the keyframe (reset to default, so back to the primitive state).
Andrea_Paz

Andrea_Paz

2019-10-14 18:36

updater   ~0002279

@Olaf
Yeah, you're not the one he didn't get, but me. I mean that three resets are used to bring to zero the respective values of X, Y, and Z while the reset at the bottom is the normal global reset that brings back to the std values of the whole window.
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-14 18:23

reporter   ~0002277

@Andrea_Paz, of course, it depends on what function these buttons will ultimately have, if they are used. The one used on the Shape Wipe photo is called "Reset Feather".
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-14 17:55

reporter   ~0002276

@PhyllisSmith - no problem, because I don't understand $English ;-)
separators :: divider -> 0000287:0002274 (---- Position ------------)

Don't worry, these separators can be controlled through the theme. In Cakewalk, they are already set so that they can hardly be seen with the naked eye. If you use a theme other than Cakewalk, you will find them in a correspondingly conspicuous way. I'm sorry that I didn't notice this immediately.

Because the majority wants to have headlines the decision was made, I think.

What about RMB?

@Andrea_Paz
> "..and I like the reset icon with the dot, Igor style!"

It can be confusing, the themes have a reset switch, an undo switch and a redo switch (you can see them in the main window quite far to the right). Your graphic uses three reset switches instead of the undo switches.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2019-10-14 16:51

manager   ~0002275

@Olaf - I don't understand German - ; ) - so let me make sure I understand correctly when you say separators, you mean just the lines as in the last note #2274 of Position, Keyframes, and Shape? or the actual words too? We do not want to start using these if they are objectionable to some. I think the Mask menu really needed them because it got so voluminous and really needed distinct sections. And we can all agree that with the work done by IgorB to add 25 (50 with 540) new ShapeWipes, his contribution certainly merited adopting his Transition ShapeWipe menu layout.

In response to Olaf quote" "If the separators shown on the theme S.U.V. in the last few days should be adopted, they should be inserted directly on the theme. This is the only way to ensure that other themes are not affected." I am clueless as to whether these can be theme-based but will try to find out.

Until we can come to some kind of compromise/solution, for the smaller or more obvious menus, we will hold off on adding any separators/words/lines.

The attached file shows how the Cakewalk theme looks right now for comparison.

grab_20191014-104134.png (18,153 bytes)
grab_20191014-104134.png (18,153 bytes)
Andrea_Paz

Andrea_Paz

2019-10-14 16:27

updater   ~0002274

My interpretation of Igor's proposal. I have been very imprecise in the spacing, but I hope I have given an idea of the relationship between sections and icons. [...and I like the reset icon with the dot, Igor style!]

MyTest.png (20,839 bytes)
MyTest.png (20,839 bytes)
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-14 14:05

reporter   ~0002271

Nobody wants to play with the SVG? Funny, it worked in the movies: A student put his homework on the Internet and the community did it for him. Apparently I have to earn my billions myself.

I put the keyframes up because it shows the importance of the keyframes, in case the automatic keyframes are turned off. (The icons still have different dimensions in this preview.)

> "I am in favor of "Reset to Default" being placed on the right mouse button."
Is that realistic at all, @PhyllisSmith? (I quote analogously, a relic from past days - cut, copy and paste - do not pay further attention.)

Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-12 14:39

reporter   ~0002260

Enclosed is the SVG source. It contains everything necessary for the design.

Igor, your montage was not ugly, apart from the theme used, but it contains redundancies. I assume that pictograms are self-explanatory, otherwise we don't need any - or better ones.

CamPro-Draft.svg (260,215 bytes)
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2019-10-12 13:45

reporter   ~0002253

Olaf I saw your picture about Camera-Projector-tool layout (campro-cw_overview_12101140.png).
Unfortunately I don’t like it.
It is not intuitive, and I try to explain why.
- The Keyframe+ and Keyframe- icons (buttons) are aligned horizontally to X coordinates, then an user may think that that buttons works only for X coordinate. (And it is not true)
- Same thing for the Smooth and Linear buttons. They are aligned horizontally to Y coordinate.
- The Clear buttons, on the right side of Z coordinate, seems to indicate that it Reset only the Z coordinate.
For a correct separation of functions a vertical line will be needed to separate X,Y, Z fields by Keyframes+- and Smooth/Linear buttons.

In my ugly (as always) photomontage you don’t find these misunderstanding, I think. Maybe others, yes.
But you (Olaf, developers, Sam and other users) can “speak” and showed our photomontages/idea about it, like we did for the Mask layout, for a better solution, I think.
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-12 13:45

reporter   ~0002252

Enclosed is an overview for orientation. Of course you can discuss arrangement, appearance and buttons. The additional Undo switches are off, because the Horizontal and Vertical Alignment already has this function and a real "Reset to Default" should be inserted in the context menu.

The keyboard shortcuts are from shortcuts.html. "Move to next/previous keyframe" (k/Ctrl-k) are without function with my CGG.

Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-11 20:47

reporter   ~0002246

Once again, I am in favor of "Reset to Default" being placed on the right mouse button.
The developer can also check the existing "Cut, Copy and Paste" for proper function. Cut by the way has exactly this reset function - except for "Z", here a "wrong" value is used - contrary to the expectation, with "Cut" the field would be cleared empty, in order to be able to insert something with "Paste".
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-11 19:30

reporter   ~0002245

And another addendum: I wrote "the global undo switch has been removed," – in the beginning I concentrated on the holes in the design, only late in the evening I noticed the fat reset switch. I didn't pay attention, because I usually find something different in this position.
What exactly should happen when one of the three undo/reset switches is pressed? Is only the position field reset or also the corresponding projector position in composer ...?
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-11 15:57

reporter   ~0002244

Addendum: At Cakewalk I banned the separators for a good reason. If the separators shown on the theme S.U.V. in the last few days should be adopted, they should be inserted directly on the theme. This is the only way to ensure that other themes are not affected.
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-11 14:10

reporter   ~0002243

@Sam: https://www.cinelerra-gg.org/bugtracker/view.php?id=287#c2236
Sam

Sam

2019-10-11 13:47

administrator   ~0002241

That only gives my personal opinion, but Igor's suggestion just makes more sense to me. It's more logical and much clearer than the current version. The current window is just confusing and definitely not good looking. I prefer Igor's suggestion.
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-11 13:29

reporter   ~0002240

Here is a screenshot that shows that the Y-box is shifted to the left, which mainly causes restlessness to the right and that the placement of the switches did not happen as in my example below. I only mention this because the results of such GUI work often depend on the time used, see the GUI of the mask for comparison.

campro-cw_actual.png (6,684 bytes)
campro-cw_actual.png (6,684 bytes)
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-11 12:50

reporter   ~0002237

And while we're at it, the Y-box is narrower than the other two.
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-11 12:44

reporter   ~0002236

The current layout is more practical, in terms of short distances, than visually impressive. But that's not what my question was about.
However, the draft now presented could be improved. On the one hand the arrangement of the preselection switches, here the possibility exists to arrange them in 3x2 instead of in 2x3. The added undo switches would then have to be placed unmistakably. In addition, the global undo switch has been removed, I see no reason for this.
Sam

Sam

2019-10-09 12:22

administrator   ~0002230

@IgorBeg
+1 I like it
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2019-10-09 12:06

reporter   ~0002229

About Camera and Projector tools layout, I added a first sketch only for discussion and to try a good/possible solution.

PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2019-10-02 00:23

manager   ~0002204

@Olaf
Quote: "Glad you don't listen to me" But I did !! and yet I concluded that the monthly builds work best for me at this time. See response in issue 0000275 that I failed to get done yesterday.

I will pass along the other recommendations, so thanks.
Olaf

Olaf

2019-10-01 09:25

reporter   ~0002198

Glad you don't listen to me (monthly builds), so living is much more comfortable.

The file is taken from IgorBeg's "mask_prst_trash.svg" (git: 8fd64d1d3770c95e2a7cba1049e909cadb4e1fbf theme_cakewalk/source_SVG/mask_prst_trash.svg) and was automatically created as PNG on first adoption. It can be removed. (Good work, your icons, IgorBeg! The "trash can" I will possibly adapt to the already existing one, because of the uniformity. ;) Locally I had already renamed the SVG file, the C text fits.

Speaking of icons, the useless "mask_*.png" files in all source directories of "plugins/theme_*/" can be removed at the same time.

And I can't find the button in the GUI that matches "cwindow_focus.png" anymore (git: da1e39d85e138b0d552e932d875c05e8dc743244). Please use the screenshot for useful hints.
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2019-10-01 01:36

manager   ~0002196

@Olaf
Thank you. Due to me not reading my email in time, the icons did not get into the monthly builds but will be checked in soon. We did notice that there is now a file called "mask_prst_trash.png" that was previously non-existing. It is not referenced in the code base anywhere but it is a nice looking trash can!
Olaf

Olaf

2019-09-30 16:07

reporter   ~0002194

Alternative icons for Cakewalk: http://womentie.de/cinelerra/theme_cakewalk.7z
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2019-09-30 00:50

manager   ~0002193

Today's GIT checkin includes the addition to the Camera and Projector menus, the additional 2 icons for F11/F12 and Shift F11/F12, with tool tips. Thank you for the png showing the best place to add the icons. Alternative icons are welcome for Cakewalk, Neophyte, and any other themes where it would be better.
Olaf

Olaf

2019-09-16 12:08

reporter   ~0002153

In passing

Fswitches.png (17,951 bytes)
Fswitches.png (17,951 bytes)
PhyllisSmith

PhyllisSmith

2019-09-15 22:08

manager   ~0002146

"Shift+F11/F12" can be found by right mouse click in the Compositor which displays possible selections such as Zoom, Fullscreen, and Hide Controls. See png. But it would be helpful to have it elsewhere and I kind of like the selectable help you see on the bottom of the Mask menu to have a similar one on the bottom of Projector and Camera too.

F11F12.png (47,998 bytes)
F11F12.png (47,998 bytes)
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2019-09-08 13:43

reporter   ~0002090

Then, if I understand you correctly, you would like to add a button for the Camera Reset and a button for Camera “Insert” in Camera tool window that implement the shortcuts functions F11 and Shift+F11?
(and the same for the Projector, F12 and Shift+F12)
For me it is a good suggestion.

In your example you have to enable “Generate keyframes while tweeking” icon (Automatic keyframe: ON), otherwise it doesn’t work.
If you want I can do a screencast for you. ;-)
Olaf

Olaf

2019-09-07 12:28

reporter   ~0002084

Thanks for the interpolation, @Igor.

My concern was to improve the basic usability. Keyboard shortcuts are always good, but they are intended for users who know the program and its peculiarities like the contents of their vest pockets. The shortcuts you mentioned "Shift+F11/F12" can neither be found in "Camera" and "Projector" nor in the menus such as "Keyframes". The user must study the keyboard shortcut list to learn about it.

So can I assume that you have successfully solved the scenario I have described in this way and are satisfied with it? So much the better.

shortcuts.html:
F11 Reset camera
F11 'Shift' Create identity camera keyframe

Let do it:
Automatic keyframe: off
Position: 0:00:20:00
Camera: X=20,Y20,Z=2
Shift+F11
Position: 0:00:30:00
Shift+F11
Num: 1 (a picture forward)
F11
z

Was that unfair? I think it clarifies my point of view on the general operating concept. Whether the desired switches represent an improvement is now doubtful.
IgorBeg

IgorBeg

2019-09-07 07:33

reporter   ~0002083

@Olaf
I don't know if it answer your request, and probably you always know but...
- have you tried the shortcuts F11 and F12, to reset respectively Camera and Projector, and insert the keyframes there in timeline?
- and have you tried the shortcuts Shift+F11 and Shift+F12 to insert a keyframe, for Camera and Projector, in cursor position between two keyframes?

They ere added by a Sam's request time ago. Really useful and well implemented, I think.
Olaf

Olaf

2019-08-26 12:42

reporter   ~0002034

There are several ways to place the individual movie sequences on the Timeline.
The preferred option is to place all sequences in a row on one track.
However, the keyframes are not connected to the sequence as usual, but are attached to a continuous washing line.
For each sequence at least four keyframes are necessary:
- A keyframe on the previous sequence to neutralize the following one,
- the keyframe that marks the beginning of the change,
- the keyframe that marks the end of the change,
- another keyframe to neutralize on the following sequence.

The beginning of the film sequence is often not enough to determine the necessary values, so the search starts offset.
Once these values have been determined, they must be placed as previously written.
The automatic keyframe function cannot do this:
- each value in camera and projector must be changed and reset again, so that these values are set as keyframe.
- an unmanageable jumble of keframes is created.

The alternative is to have one track per film sequence, which is completely unrealistic.

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
2019-08-26 12:22 Olaf New Issue
2019-08-26 12:42 Olaf Note Added: 0002034
2019-09-07 07:33 IgorBeg Note Added: 0002083
2019-09-07 12:28 Olaf Note Added: 0002084
2019-09-08 13:43 IgorBeg Note Added: 0002090
2019-09-15 22:08 PhyllisSmith File Added: F11F12.png
2019-09-15 22:08 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0002146
2019-09-15 22:08 PhyllisSmith Assigned To => PhyllisSmith
2019-09-15 22:08 PhyllisSmith Status new => acknowledged
2019-09-16 12:08 Olaf File Added: Fswitches.png
2019-09-16 12:08 Olaf Note Added: 0002153
2019-09-30 00:50 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0002193
2019-09-30 16:07 Olaf Note Added: 0002194
2019-10-01 01:36 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0002196
2019-10-01 09:25 Olaf Note Added: 0002198
2019-10-02 00:23 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0002204
2019-10-09 12:06 IgorBeg File Added: Camera-Projector-tools_layout_01.png
2019-10-09 12:06 IgorBeg Note Added: 0002229
2019-10-09 12:22 Sam Note Added: 0002230
2019-10-11 12:44 Olaf Note Added: 0002236
2019-10-11 12:50 Olaf Note Added: 0002237
2019-10-11 13:29 Olaf File Added: campro-cw_actual.png
2019-10-11 13:29 Olaf Note Added: 0002240
2019-10-11 13:47 Sam Note Added: 0002241
2019-10-11 14:10 Olaf Note Added: 0002243
2019-10-11 15:57 Olaf Note Added: 0002244
2019-10-11 19:30 Olaf Note Added: 0002245
2019-10-11 20:47 Olaf Note Added: 0002246
2019-10-12 13:45 Olaf File Added: campro-cw_overview_12101530.png
2019-10-12 13:45 Olaf Note Added: 0002252
2019-10-12 13:45 IgorBeg Note Added: 0002253
2019-10-12 14:39 Olaf File Added: CamPro-Draft.svg
2019-10-12 14:39 Olaf Note Added: 0002260
2019-10-14 14:05 Olaf File Added: campro-cw_draft_14101535.png
2019-10-14 14:05 Olaf Note Added: 0002271
2019-10-14 16:27 Andrea_Paz File Added: MyTest.png
2019-10-14 16:27 Andrea_Paz Note Added: 0002274
2019-10-14 16:51 PhyllisSmith File Added: grab_20191014-104134.png
2019-10-14 16:51 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0002275
2019-10-14 17:55 Olaf Note Added: 0002276
2019-10-14 18:23 Olaf Note Added: 0002277
2019-10-14 18:36 Andrea_Paz Note Added: 0002279
2019-10-14 20:27 Olaf Note Added: 0002283
2019-10-15 09:25 Andrea_Paz Note Added: 0002284
2019-10-16 11:00 IgorBeg File Added: Camera-Projector-tools_layout_01_explain.png
2019-10-16 11:00 IgorBeg File Added: Camera-Projector-tools_layout_02.png
2019-10-16 11:00 IgorBeg Note Added: 0002288
2019-10-16 11:33 Sam Note Added: 0002289
2019-10-16 12:45 Olaf Note Added: 0002290
2019-10-17 09:34 IgorBeg Note Added: 0002293
2019-10-17 18:14 Olaf Note Added: 0002294
2019-10-18 08:52 IgorBeg Note Added: 0002298
2019-10-18 11:15 Olaf Note Added: 0002300
2019-10-26 14:49 PhyllisSmith Note Added: 0002341